This is depressing news. Tiktok and those who use it are pathetic, and there's no getting around that. It's baked into the type of video game that Tiktok is.
I legitimately don't get the "the Internet was “colonized” by the Right" argument. It seems to be dealing with entirely different metrics than I'm familiar with.
that's why it annoys me, and why i included those two bits at the end.
i would agree that apolitical and libertarian spaces shifting more explicitly right probably skewed things-- but that's not the argument.there is a really... entitled? undertone. i also think they overrate the way discourse is rated. like someone recently published something about how there being 27% conservative news influencers vs. 21% liberal ones "undermines democracy" and didn't address any of these potentialities:
1) preference!
2) algorithms surface things that get engagement rather than having an ideological bent
3) conservatives are more argumentative so there's a feedback loop
everything is under this guise of like, if leftists aren't "winning" it's because the cards are stacked against them. it doesn't matter that they own establishment media and have been cultural tastemakers and frankly still do gatekeep important parts of culture...
factor that in with the belief that the internet has become "crueler" which is empirically untrue. ..i think what it is is a lot of people are used to a post-facebook, sanitized, "normie" internet and don't remember the before-times.
Great points. It really bothers me too. The entitlement is definitely there. In a way, it reminds me of really active online fandoms being confused that their impact isn't what they expected.
Hahaha, I am going off...! Yeah, I wonder. I think there is actually space for indie heterodoxy. I don't think these people would necessarily go for it but if I had to hire, I'd say like:
Myself, Alex Kaschuta, Tracing Woodgrains, Joshua Citarella. All internet-adjacent, hard to slot in anywhere in particular. Articles + videos.
p.s., your comment about being crazy is accurate and is partly why I sub to your work. Makes me wonder, though, which of the three major archetypes do you think you fall under?
It is, right! I think they all do too well on their own to agree to something like it. But that's what it would look like for me. Maybe throw meme analysis, who is one of my dearest friends, in there. I think with all of us, you'd get a really comprehensive, nuanced picture of Internet usage and its associated culture war battles.
As for me -- Schizo-Borderline, I have shades of both, but maybe more Schizo. I don't know if it will reflect well in the full piece, which hopefully is being published in Comment soon (btw, updated the preview with typos cleared etc.), but I did considerable research on each. Honestly it should be a book.
I'm curious how that would actually play out because I think it's a genuinely good idea. What would you see it looking like if it came to fruition? Something like each writer has a slotted day-of-the-week for a submission, so like every Monday is Kathy D, then Tuesdays would be Kaschuta, and so forth? Maybe some kind of weekly video segment featuring all of you?
re: archetypes, that's what I figured you'd say. Was thinking as I was writing that last reply that you're my fav schizo poster.
I think you're right about subscriptions making a comeback. Well... I hope you're right and I am rooting for you. I think subscriptions provide a higher quality of information since it can pretty quickly sort the valuable from the useless. Of course it doesn't account for the self-financed, but independent voices are an ever-present blessing regardless of economic model.
Also, I appreciate your experiments with nicknames for your community. I hope (think) there's a place for both Deeists and Detards.
I think any pushback to a subscription type model is advertisers. Almost every facet of social media, content platforms, and even search is now almost entirely ads. Sure it isn't the explicit ones from days gone by, but no matter where you look between reviews, placements, endorsements, ad reads and emails / cookie farming, it feels almost like a 1 to 1 ratio ads to chosen content. If you are a "feed" person you are just watching broadcast tv as far as I am concerned. Like 5 mins of attention to ads for every 20 mins of content, or atleast that is how it feels to me. If individual subs caught on, companies and agencies would have to figure out how to go directly to creators, which is way harder than dealing with platforms. Wouldn't shock me if youtube banned "ad reads" soon. But then again, I think we are like 5 years away from "ad supported cars" so prolly ignore me. :D
Yeah it feels odd for me, being this hardline against ads as a category, but the problems from them have, to me, really screwed things up on the internet. We have gotten to the point to where customer hostile is the norm. You can't even pay services enough to keep them from advertising to you. The big companies are just so desperate for the attention they will back the truck up. And as consumers we have all kind of given up the fight I think. We can't even recognize anymore the difference between creative content, and just content-as-vehicle-for-ad. Idk, like I said, old man screams at cloud.
"You can't even pay services enough to keep them from advertising to you." --> we buy newspapers and they have ads. sirius radio. cable tv. hybrid model has always worked best. cc: hal conte
And how are those three particular vehicles doing these days? Do you spend much time with them? Again, I know I am the weirdo here. And for products I am into, sure an ad might help me become aware of something I could use. But everytime I am in a bar and the sportsball is going I marvel at just how much of the noise coming out of that box is just pure advertising, even down to what is on the floor, the screen graphics, and the uniforms. I mean if you are into sportsball I don't terribly care about your brain getting melted. But if for every ten mins of a pod you had 3 mins of ads for Sheath underwear, would you pay for it? Sorry, this is my soapbox so I am sure I am just being unreasonable about it.
sorry, not trying to turn this comment section into my own personal struggle bus :D Appreciate the effort, keep up the good stuff, and graveyards are a totally fine place to do some recording IMO.
This is depressing news. Tiktok and those who use it are pathetic, and there's no getting around that. It's baked into the type of video game that Tiktok is.
It sort of amazes me that you both regularly comment & have such disdain for my work and niche lol
I think *you* are alright, but it's impossible to ignore that the influences you write about are making you worse.
But it’s the only vector through which this audience has known me
You can write commentary about trashy hellholes like Tiktok or X without posting there. You don't have to touch the poop.
I legitimately don't get the "the Internet was “colonized” by the Right" argument. It seems to be dealing with entirely different metrics than I'm familiar with.
that's why it annoys me, and why i included those two bits at the end.
i would agree that apolitical and libertarian spaces shifting more explicitly right probably skewed things-- but that's not the argument.there is a really... entitled? undertone. i also think they overrate the way discourse is rated. like someone recently published something about how there being 27% conservative news influencers vs. 21% liberal ones "undermines democracy" and didn't address any of these potentialities:
1) preference!
2) algorithms surface things that get engagement rather than having an ideological bent
3) conservatives are more argumentative so there's a feedback loop
everything is under this guise of like, if leftists aren't "winning" it's because the cards are stacked against them. it doesn't matter that they own establishment media and have been cultural tastemakers and frankly still do gatekeep important parts of culture...
factor that in with the belief that the internet has become "crueler" which is empirically untrue. ..i think what it is is a lot of people are used to a post-facebook, sanitized, "normie" internet and don't remember the before-times.
anyway i'm ranting this just really bothers me
Great points. It really bothers me too. The entitlement is definitely there. In a way, it reminds me of really active online fandoms being confused that their impact isn't what they expected.
Three Kathy D posts in 4 days? Love it.
What exactly would your "network" look like if you started one? Having a hard time conceptualizing it.
Hahaha, I am going off...! Yeah, I wonder. I think there is actually space for indie heterodoxy. I don't think these people would necessarily go for it but if I had to hire, I'd say like:
Myself, Alex Kaschuta, Tracing Woodgrains, Joshua Citarella. All internet-adjacent, hard to slot in anywhere in particular. Articles + videos.
Sounds like a good lineup to shoot for—I'm sold.
p.s., your comment about being crazy is accurate and is partly why I sub to your work. Makes me wonder, though, which of the three major archetypes do you think you fall under?
It is, right! I think they all do too well on their own to agree to something like it. But that's what it would look like for me. Maybe throw meme analysis, who is one of my dearest friends, in there. I think with all of us, you'd get a really comprehensive, nuanced picture of Internet usage and its associated culture war battles.
As for me -- Schizo-Borderline, I have shades of both, but maybe more Schizo. I don't know if it will reflect well in the full piece, which hopefully is being published in Comment soon (btw, updated the preview with typos cleared etc.), but I did considerable research on each. Honestly it should be a book.
I'm curious how that would actually play out because I think it's a genuinely good idea. What would you see it looking like if it came to fruition? Something like each writer has a slotted day-of-the-week for a submission, so like every Monday is Kathy D, then Tuesdays would be Kaschuta, and so forth? Maybe some kind of weekly video segment featuring all of you?
re: archetypes, that's what I figured you'd say. Was thinking as I was writing that last reply that you're my fav schizo poster.
I think you're right about subscriptions making a comeback. Well... I hope you're right and I am rooting for you. I think subscriptions provide a higher quality of information since it can pretty quickly sort the valuable from the useless. Of course it doesn't account for the self-financed, but independent voices are an ever-present blessing regardless of economic model.
Also, I appreciate your experiments with nicknames for your community. I hope (think) there's a place for both Deeists and Detards.
Haha, I try to mix it up each week.
I think subscriptions good
Individual subscriptions = unsustainable
I think any pushback to a subscription type model is advertisers. Almost every facet of social media, content platforms, and even search is now almost entirely ads. Sure it isn't the explicit ones from days gone by, but no matter where you look between reviews, placements, endorsements, ad reads and emails / cookie farming, it feels almost like a 1 to 1 ratio ads to chosen content. If you are a "feed" person you are just watching broadcast tv as far as I am concerned. Like 5 mins of attention to ads for every 20 mins of content, or atleast that is how it feels to me. If individual subs caught on, companies and agencies would have to figure out how to go directly to creators, which is way harder than dealing with platforms. Wouldn't shock me if youtube banned "ad reads" soon. But then again, I think we are like 5 years away from "ad supported cars" so prolly ignore me. :D
I don't think ads are inherently bad, tbh. But they're not working optimally right now.
Yeah it feels odd for me, being this hardline against ads as a category, but the problems from them have, to me, really screwed things up on the internet. We have gotten to the point to where customer hostile is the norm. You can't even pay services enough to keep them from advertising to you. The big companies are just so desperate for the attention they will back the truck up. And as consumers we have all kind of given up the fight I think. We can't even recognize anymore the difference between creative content, and just content-as-vehicle-for-ad. Idk, like I said, old man screams at cloud.
"You can't even pay services enough to keep them from advertising to you." --> we buy newspapers and they have ads. sirius radio. cable tv. hybrid model has always worked best. cc: hal conte
And how are those three particular vehicles doing these days? Do you spend much time with them? Again, I know I am the weirdo here. And for products I am into, sure an ad might help me become aware of something I could use. But everytime I am in a bar and the sportsball is going I marvel at just how much of the noise coming out of that box is just pure advertising, even down to what is on the floor, the screen graphics, and the uniforms. I mean if you are into sportsball I don't terribly care about your brain getting melted. But if for every ten mins of a pod you had 3 mins of ads for Sheath underwear, would you pay for it? Sorry, this is my soapbox so I am sure I am just being unreasonable about it.
You're being reasonable. Ads are utter garbage, and I have no respect for anyone in that industry.
no, but it's not because of the ads, you know
sorry, not trying to turn this comment section into my own personal struggle bus :D Appreciate the effort, keep up the good stuff, and graveyards are a totally fine place to do some recording IMO.
Ever more digital bubbles where we never have to interact with someone we disagree with, doesn’t strike me as a positive development.
Fortunately Bluesky will likely end in failure just like the Fediverse and Threads and everyone else who tried to replace Twitter.
The reach just isn’t there, it has barely any international footprint. Give it a few weeks, and people will default back to Twitter.