Very interesting! I dont know what effect this is supposed to have on me. I mostly just find it interesting that meanings are changing, especially as a young GenZer who has identified as LGBT since elementary school. I’m not particularly upset about it because that’s just how language and identity works.
A very thought provoking article. I couldn’t help but think of the whiplash of this fluid identity, in that the mob also works on vibes. You don’t need to be able to summon demons to be burned as a witch.
Truly, of all the articles I've read and videos I've seen on this and similar subjects- this is one of the best written explanations of this discourse I've ever come across. You do an incredible job being impartial. I have my personal opinions on this shift- I'm sure you do too, but I don't particularly feel yours in the essay. Kudos for that, most people struggle with this.
its almost like its all made up and it doesnt matter.....because its all made up. labels were created by human beings from past and we, now humans, engage with that with changed everything.
i will be honest, i only managed to read thru half of this because you were saying identity is about action when no its not. is someone who is celibate or "virgin", are they not straight anymore? could they be gay just cos "they havent tried it yet". and asexual is lack of attraction, one can lack attraction and desire/enjoy the physical intimacy and mechanicisms and acts of sex without feeling attraction. and if YOU cant conceptualize experiencing either, thats cos youre a whole different human being.
also, lgbtq community was created for desire to exist and it not be met with murdering, violence, jail, abuse, etc. why dont you spend time writing about how lesbian terfs perpetuate the idea that violence is inherent to the male sex, therefor 1. excusing harm/violence by men by thinking its "natural" and unavoidable, 2. endangering the lives of transwomen, especially Black and Brown transwomen, both of which couple to create assumptions and expectations that transwomen of color are violent "creatures/attackers/violators" when theyre actually just human beings who want to exist as they desire.
the internet also makes one forget that we are 7 billion people and not everyones gotta agree. why do you care what someone identifies as? do you know them? are you less xyz because someone else is? are they in your irl community? if so to the last one, have you discussed with them your feelings?
You’re reading a value judgment that isn’t there. This is the crux of the piece:
“It’s not that these individuals are lying, exactly. Rather, it’s that the purpose labels serve has evolved over time. Many identity categories do not function to describe one’s lived experience. Thus the label “lesbian” no longer necessarily describes the experience or behavioral patterns of same-sex attraction.”
It’s not good or bad. It’s simply a different way of using existing language.
Good writing, but the "asexual slut" thing is infuriating. I had an ex who did this, and it was an escape hatch for when she wanted to manipulate or use a guy she wasn't attracted to. For people like this, it's just cover for their ulterior motives.
The thing that really upsets me is the shift in the meaning of "lesbian" I do think the idea of gold star lesbians is a little outdated but oh my god can we stop it with the MEN. EVERYWHERE. Like a large part of the lesbian experience to me is the decentering of men and an escape from the patriarchy, at least in terms of love and personal relationships and its absolutely sickening to me that they're starting to appear even in lesbian spaces. At least its mostly internet foolishness and most lesbians in real life are political lesbian haters
It’s because all those things have become status symbols.. they don’t actually mean anything beyond “this thing is cool and popular” .. “this thing isn’t (or at least until most people are on board… then it flips)”
It’s not wholly new- “political lesbians” were a thing in the late 20th century. But this new thing where being gay is apparently more cultural than sexual and people adopt old labels with as much sincerity as people adopt star signs (and for similar reasons) is… a even more obnoxious than political lesbians, frankly.
I think I ran into a bit of both as an adolescent. I was active in radical feminist/‘terf’ communities and was told by a lesbian something along the lines of, I think you could be/are a lesbian, it’s clear how devoted you are to women. I basically she knew she wasn’t right but it was taken as a compliment l. Now I’m very upset on my younger self’s behalf. That kind of messaging put politics and yes vibes over my personal romantic satisfaction. I care about women a great deal, as a class and as my friends and family. Doesn’t mean I am sexually satisfied by them. I am with men, go figure.
As an older teen, a little earlier, I went down the trans tumblr rabbit hole a little, got out, kept trying to date women for a while as a terf, made some excellent friends and was a terrible girlfriend to women, and finally later accepted I’m not really bi, I’m straight. I feel for the actually lesbian and bi women I frustrated and am a bad example etc etc. But also I was young & confused & upset. Life goes on for all. I hope my female exes are happy and safe out there. I hope we Americans stop growing up online so much.
Thank you K, for pivoting back to this gem. I also appreciated the sharp note in it on Rachel Donezal and Hilaria Baldwin. There's a big category difference btwn domains where affinity is enough or almost enough for identity, and ones where affinity isn't enough, and the word "charlatan" marks that difference, sharply.
And are not those domains’ divisions into “charlatan or not” arbitrarily deemed so? In other words, apply the logic and cultural approval of “I feel like I’m a woman” to “I feel like I’m Black,” and heads explode.
Your test of applying logic and approval as an arbitrary person is inappropriate. The right test is what Chomsky called a competence test in the case of spoken sentences -- pose the problem to a native and ask what their natural opinion is as a native. That depends of course on a notion of "native speaker" in Chomsky's case, or "native" in the case of a given domain. We're not all colored grey and raised in communal creches, even if one makes that assumption hypothetically.
If I'm being honest, my ideal solution to this is a social media plugin that screens out content from anyone under 35 🤣
There’s a joke that lesbians just haven’t met Chad yet.
Very interesting! I dont know what effect this is supposed to have on me. I mostly just find it interesting that meanings are changing, especially as a young GenZer who has identified as LGBT since elementary school. I’m not particularly upset about it because that’s just how language and identity works.
What's the name of the piece that contains the phrase 'I don’t know what [queer] is, but it’s not gay sex.'?
A very thought provoking article. I couldn’t help but think of the whiplash of this fluid identity, in that the mob also works on vibes. You don’t need to be able to summon demons to be burned as a witch.
A pretend world, where words speak louder than actions or physical reality, and everyone who wants to can claim to belong to a marginalized group.
yes
Truly, of all the articles I've read and videos I've seen on this and similar subjects- this is one of the best written explanations of this discourse I've ever come across. You do an incredible job being impartial. I have my personal opinions on this shift- I'm sure you do too, but I don't particularly feel yours in the essay. Kudos for that, most people struggle with this.
Thank you! I try
this is really good!!
its almost like its all made up and it doesnt matter.....because its all made up. labels were created by human beings from past and we, now humans, engage with that with changed everything.
i will be honest, i only managed to read thru half of this because you were saying identity is about action when no its not. is someone who is celibate or "virgin", are they not straight anymore? could they be gay just cos "they havent tried it yet". and asexual is lack of attraction, one can lack attraction and desire/enjoy the physical intimacy and mechanicisms and acts of sex without feeling attraction. and if YOU cant conceptualize experiencing either, thats cos youre a whole different human being.
also, lgbtq community was created for desire to exist and it not be met with murdering, violence, jail, abuse, etc. why dont you spend time writing about how lesbian terfs perpetuate the idea that violence is inherent to the male sex, therefor 1. excusing harm/violence by men by thinking its "natural" and unavoidable, 2. endangering the lives of transwomen, especially Black and Brown transwomen, both of which couple to create assumptions and expectations that transwomen of color are violent "creatures/attackers/violators" when theyre actually just human beings who want to exist as they desire.
the internet also makes one forget that we are 7 billion people and not everyones gotta agree. why do you care what someone identifies as? do you know them? are you less xyz because someone else is? are they in your irl community? if so to the last one, have you discussed with them your feelings?
You’re reading a value judgment that isn’t there. This is the crux of the piece:
“It’s not that these individuals are lying, exactly. Rather, it’s that the purpose labels serve has evolved over time. Many identity categories do not function to describe one’s lived experience. Thus the label “lesbian” no longer necessarily describes the experience or behavioral patterns of same-sex attraction.”
It’s not good or bad. It’s simply a different way of using existing language.
i will take your reply and try to read it again holding that.
Thank you
Good writing, but the "asexual slut" thing is infuriating. I had an ex who did this, and it was an escape hatch for when she wanted to manipulate or use a guy she wasn't attracted to. For people like this, it's just cover for their ulterior motives.
The thing that really upsets me is the shift in the meaning of "lesbian" I do think the idea of gold star lesbians is a little outdated but oh my god can we stop it with the MEN. EVERYWHERE. Like a large part of the lesbian experience to me is the decentering of men and an escape from the patriarchy, at least in terms of love and personal relationships and its absolutely sickening to me that they're starting to appear even in lesbian spaces. At least its mostly internet foolishness and most lesbians in real life are political lesbian haters
It’s because all those things have become status symbols.. they don’t actually mean anything beyond “this thing is cool and popular” .. “this thing isn’t (or at least until most people are on board… then it flips)”
It’s not wholly new- “political lesbians” were a thing in the late 20th century. But this new thing where being gay is apparently more cultural than sexual and people adopt old labels with as much sincerity as people adopt star signs (and for similar reasons) is… a even more obnoxious than political lesbians, frankly.
I think I ran into a bit of both as an adolescent. I was active in radical feminist/‘terf’ communities and was told by a lesbian something along the lines of, I think you could be/are a lesbian, it’s clear how devoted you are to women. I basically she knew she wasn’t right but it was taken as a compliment l. Now I’m very upset on my younger self’s behalf. That kind of messaging put politics and yes vibes over my personal romantic satisfaction. I care about women a great deal, as a class and as my friends and family. Doesn’t mean I am sexually satisfied by them. I am with men, go figure.
As an older teen, a little earlier, I went down the trans tumblr rabbit hole a little, got out, kept trying to date women for a while as a terf, made some excellent friends and was a terrible girlfriend to women, and finally later accepted I’m not really bi, I’m straight. I feel for the actually lesbian and bi women I frustrated and am a bad example etc etc. But also I was young & confused & upset. Life goes on for all. I hope my female exes are happy and safe out there. I hope we Americans stop growing up online so much.
Thank you K, for pivoting back to this gem. I also appreciated the sharp note in it on Rachel Donezal and Hilaria Baldwin. There's a big category difference btwn domains where affinity is enough or almost enough for identity, and ones where affinity isn't enough, and the word "charlatan" marks that difference, sharply.
And are not those domains’ divisions into “charlatan or not” arbitrarily deemed so? In other words, apply the logic and cultural approval of “I feel like I’m a woman” to “I feel like I’m Black,” and heads explode.
Your test of applying logic and approval as an arbitrary person is inappropriate. The right test is what Chomsky called a competence test in the case of spoken sentences -- pose the problem to a native and ask what their natural opinion is as a native. That depends of course on a notion of "native speaker" in Chomsky's case, or "native" in the case of a given domain. We're not all colored grey and raised in communal creches, even if one makes that assumption hypothetically.
It's weird, right
Yes