As far as internet localism, love the piece overall. I'm interested in how this manifests on Twitter/Substack/podcastland v. YouTube/Tiktok/Instagram? Coming from the former set of words/idea-first media, physical presence may feel alien, mystical, embodied, etc., and therefore subversive, powerful. Whereas physical presence comes part and parcel with the image-dominated YouTube/Tiktok/Instagram posters. I'd be curious whether influencers on those latter media are also building community/trending toward offline. I suspect they are not, at least not in the same way. Or, if they are, it doesn't feel the same.
TikTok’s partnership with Eventbrite this summer makes me think they agree. IG historically has been a great place to find classifieds, IRL events etc, and I would imagine that will accelerate
I have a huge favor to ask, Katherine and Yan. I would very much like to speak to at least one of you in a voice chat for 30min to an hour or so, sometime before the end of the year.
You're singing my song, and I just started a company (I have no idea what I'm doing) to build something that actually accomplishes your--our-- goals. I want to run some ideas by you and get your input. If I'm gonna die trying I might as well consult some oracles first.
I usually give a week, I just have a tendency to run into 60%+ of contact points being full email inboxes or never-again-read dms. A typo made it look like you archived twitter. I should schedule one at a time every few days from now on.
> It is a great time to start doing things IRL and make a name for yourself in your city, if that’s the kind of thing you’re into.
I don’t get this. It seems like the worst time in the past century to do that. Extreme ambition to be famous among everyone given social media. Paired with extreme envy. C culture and m2. Moreover, party culture is not back post-pandemic. Why would anyone want to make a name for themselves in their city? The benefits are not just zero, they’re negative
I’ve seen some online scenes transition into IRL spaces and the competition and backbiting only got more fierce. Limited physical space adds a zero-sum dynamic that didn’t exist prior.
I’m not claiming that people aren’t moving offline. Perhaps they are. I’m inquiring what would motivate that given the same cultural hostilities become much more vicious with in-person rivalry specifically with people making a name for themselves in their city. The rival isn’t virtual. They’re right in front of the bitter person. This is a question
I think we’re now feeling a giant void left by the internet’s dominance receding. So people are in a space where they want to get outside but not everybody knows how, and they want to get offline but also don’t really know how. Dating apps are the prime example: everyone hates them and is leaving but they’re now having to relearn how to date without them.
I definitely agree with Katherine though that more IRL stuff is the path I foresee being taken in the medium to long term!
I really enjoyed all of this. Yan's ways of saving the internet were spot on. I read them aloud to my sister, who spends a LOT of time online, and she agreed. As a teen, I put myself through a version of that arthouse education and I unironically think it was good for my brain.
"everyone I know wants to focus on one thing that everyone else knows about, whether or not it’s good." I feel like this often. Interesting to know I'm not alone.
Twitter is less good than it used to be, more so because the only way to get seen is to buy a blue check. Before, you could be a regular person but enough people would see your stuff. Nowadays, if you are not a blue check hardly anyone sees it. Less regulation, which is good imo, less reach, bad.
I love in person meetups. I met you at one of yours in NYC briefly, but I love speaking to people from different backgrounds. I work with teenagers (I am a history teacher), so it's rare I have adult conversation. Also, one reason I am a huge fan of "Blocked and Reported" as one of the hosts, Jesse Singal, always tries to do in person meets.
"How could they feel the real weight of these events when everything is introduced to them as “fiction”? This is a quality that seems to be intrinsic to most internet-native media, a theme I’ve seen repeated as I’ve conducted qualitative interviews with people about their internet usage habits."
You really hit the nail on the head there. You've encapsulated exactly why the internet is not a real place, and why internet culture is not just culture. It will always be inferior to the real thing.
My favourite thing about Substack has been how conducive it has been to meeting people IRL. How much of that just coincides with the recent revival of more IRL events, especially in NYC, I'm not sure. But I do think there's a qualitative difference between Substack and something like Twitter, mostly due to Substack's higher barrier to participation, whether it's writing or reading. Not just that, but people take pride in the time and effort they put in (sometimes, to an annoying degree). In contrast, with other social media platforms, the conceit is to act as if you're just winging it in carefree fashion.
Agreed with Yan, especially on edict #1.
As far as internet localism, love the piece overall. I'm interested in how this manifests on Twitter/Substack/podcastland v. YouTube/Tiktok/Instagram? Coming from the former set of words/idea-first media, physical presence may feel alien, mystical, embodied, etc., and therefore subversive, powerful. Whereas physical presence comes part and parcel with the image-dominated YouTube/Tiktok/Instagram posters. I'd be curious whether influencers on those latter media are also building community/trending toward offline. I suspect they are not, at least not in the same way. Or, if they are, it doesn't feel the same.
TikTok’s partnership with Eventbrite this summer makes me think they agree. IG historically has been a great place to find classifieds, IRL events etc, and I would imagine that will accelerate
I have a huge favor to ask, Katherine and Yan. I would very much like to speak to at least one of you in a voice chat for 30min to an hour or so, sometime before the end of the year.
You're singing my song, and I just started a company (I have no idea what I'm doing) to build something that actually accomplishes your--our-- goals. I want to run some ideas by you and get your input. If I'm gonna die trying I might as well consult some oracles first.
If I hear back and this is ok with you, I'll either share some contact details or try to reach out by what means you have. Thanks again for the piece.
Hey Rob — sent you an email. In the future, you can just contact me there … 4+ messages was overkill lol
Oops, Sorry about that. I was in box check mode and have had trouble with previous first contacts. That probably didn't come off very human.
I hear you! I’d give people 3 days to respond in general
I usually give a week, I just have a tendency to run into 60%+ of contact points being full email inboxes or never-again-read dms. A typo made it look like you archived twitter. I should schedule one at a time every few days from now on.
> It is a great time to start doing things IRL and make a name for yourself in your city, if that’s the kind of thing you’re into.
I don’t get this. It seems like the worst time in the past century to do that. Extreme ambition to be famous among everyone given social media. Paired with extreme envy. C culture and m2. Moreover, party culture is not back post-pandemic. Why would anyone want to make a name for themselves in their city? The benefits are not just zero, they’re negative
I think you’re wrong here. People are moving away from online stuff, back into IRL. Competition is too fierce online, cynically.
I’ve seen some online scenes transition into IRL spaces and the competition and backbiting only got more fierce. Limited physical space adds a zero-sum dynamic that didn’t exist prior.
I’m not claiming that people aren’t moving offline. Perhaps they are. I’m inquiring what would motivate that given the same cultural hostilities become much more vicious with in-person rivalry specifically with people making a name for themselves in their city. The rival isn’t virtual. They’re right in front of the bitter person. This is a question
Cancellation is even easier in person than it is online. A bit of malicious gossip to gatekeepers will do the job, no paper trail.
You may be less inclined to do it to a person you see face to face. Not everything is so cut throat
The sense the internet is oversaturated & fewer people are trying in person because of the higher barrier to entry
I think we’re now feeling a giant void left by the internet’s dominance receding. So people are in a space where they want to get outside but not everybody knows how, and they want to get offline but also don’t really know how. Dating apps are the prime example: everyone hates them and is leaving but they’re now having to relearn how to date without them.
I definitely agree with Katherine though that more IRL stuff is the path I foresee being taken in the medium to long term!
The dating apps thing was in the water pre & early COVID - it’s one of the first places I started making predictions and they’ve bore out
I really enjoyed all of this. Yan's ways of saving the internet were spot on. I read them aloud to my sister, who spends a LOT of time online, and she agreed. As a teen, I put myself through a version of that arthouse education and I unironically think it was good for my brain.
"everyone I know wants to focus on one thing that everyone else knows about, whether or not it’s good." I feel like this often. Interesting to know I'm not alone.
I think the internets been the worst for me since ‘22-23… as a teen it was good mostly
I like the idea of Sovereign House as an in between space leading to an explosion of IRL events.
It was the first domino to fall post Covid imo
Twitter is less good than it used to be, more so because the only way to get seen is to buy a blue check. Before, you could be a regular person but enough people would see your stuff. Nowadays, if you are not a blue check hardly anyone sees it. Less regulation, which is good imo, less reach, bad.
I love in person meetups. I met you at one of yours in NYC briefly, but I love speaking to people from different backgrounds. I work with teenagers (I am a history teacher), so it's rare I have adult conversation. Also, one reason I am a huge fan of "Blocked and Reported" as one of the hosts, Jesse Singal, always tries to do in person meets.
Oh no! Was it at Sov House? I didn’t know I was pregnant yet and was preposterously low energy
"How could they feel the real weight of these events when everything is introduced to them as “fiction”? This is a quality that seems to be intrinsic to most internet-native media, a theme I’ve seen repeated as I’ve conducted qualitative interviews with people about their internet usage habits."
You really hit the nail on the head there. You've encapsulated exactly why the internet is not a real place, and why internet culture is not just culture. It will always be inferior to the real thing.
This is so true. Feeling kind of vindicated in all the arguments I've had with people on twitter saying "meet your moots" is cringe.
It’s not! My dearest friends are from Twitter
Very nearly the same for me at this point.
My favourite thing about Substack has been how conducive it has been to meeting people IRL. How much of that just coincides with the recent revival of more IRL events, especially in NYC, I'm not sure. But I do think there's a qualitative difference between Substack and something like Twitter, mostly due to Substack's higher barrier to participation, whether it's writing or reading. Not just that, but people take pride in the time and effort they put in (sometimes, to an annoying degree). In contrast, with other social media platforms, the conceit is to act as if you're just winging it in carefree fashion.
I think it depends, I would imagine quite a bit of overlap in the right cities
But I agree — discussions here are much higher quality
Thanks so much for sharing my piece :)
Figured it was a good fit for this thought digest!!